1. jayz should learn how to play an actual musical instrument then he wouldn't ahve to steal other peoples sounds.

you said 'companies who produce nothing and only generate income through lawsuits' - how about s0-called artists who play nothing and only generate income from their well-paid, Pro-Tools dependent, computer savvy producer who makes this so-called 'music' for them? And as far as sampling becoming "a part of many hits we've all enjoyed." - sorry, I listen top real music played by real musicians.

Posted at 6:10PM on Nov 20th 2006 by Steve

2. Steve has a closed view of what music is, but that's ok...all new forms take a while for broader acceptance.

"Actual musical instruments" make noise. Actual musicians manipulate them with artistry. The response to any musician and any noise made will be subjective, as were initial responses to the sax, electric guitar, synthesizer, and whatever it is Whitney Houston does. See? It's ok to have your own opinions, but to dismiss things categorically just proves ignorance.

Posted at 7:58PM on Nov 20th 2006 by roymond

3. Actual musical instruments make noise, yes, and if played with skill and played correctly, those noises are in a proper chord, key, or scale. That's the hard part. Hip-hop thugs haven't taken the time to learn that, or how to sing either.

But their "lyrics" that encourage gun violence, abuse of women, drugs, and that have made the term 'pimp' - traditionally someone who abuses and sells women (and usually beats them in the process, which is okay according to hip-hop) - a positive word in today's sad society, and pretty much common lexicon. I didn't know that sampling (stealing) other peoples music had such a great legacy.

Go sampling! Pimp it out! Women are whores and bitches!!!

Posted at 9:55PM on Nov 20th 2006 by Steve

4. I have to agree with Steve. If all these "gangstas" made their own music an talked more positive they might not be perceived as crappy violence promoting, female bashing, WAY overrated "artists."

Posted at 9:18AM on Nov 21st 2006 by JW

5. I wasn't defending JayZ. Sampling...hmmm...Edgar Varez comes to mind. Frank Zappa. The article wasn't focused on Hip Hop per se, but sampling. And your first post was pretty much blindly anti-sampling.

As for musicianship, yes, studied skill is generally a trait of an artist. But this is subjective, too. Jazz musicians typically don't play their own music...they make it their own through interpretation. DJs do the same with a turntable. Watch the movie "scratch" and see how seriously these artists take their art.

I was simply suggesting that you not close out a category of music based on cliche over-generalizations.

Posted at 11:46AM on Nov 21st 2006 by roymond

6. Fair enough Roymond. But to say "Jazz musicians typically don't play their own music...they make it their own through interpretation." - they still have to LEARN TO PLAY THE INSTRUMENT! To interpret a Herbie Hancock piece, I'd have to be a much more talented piano player than I am now - I've tried and I'm just not that good. But I sure could sample it on my computer an weave it into anything. That just takes 15 minutes of software training.

Record scrathchers don't have to learn to play anything. I can scratch a record. I've done it, it's easy. I can also use Pro-Tools to clip out chunks of beats and riffs and fill them in somewhere else. I taught my friend to do it - he can't play a single note on any instrument and is tone-deaf, but he could do that. So when I'm changing beats on my drum machine and weaving them together on my computer, that's artistry? Gimme a break. Playing drums like Buddy Rich is artistry, not copying and pasting beats together in software.

I realize you weren't defending some illiterate hip-hop criminal, but defending sampling is, although not quite as bad, still not worth our time.

Posted at 4:30PM on Nov 21st 2006 by Steve

7. It seems we have much ignorance on how and what sampling is. Sampling in itself is a musical process. An instrument if you will. You still need ear, feel and rhythem. For instance the turntables are every much an instrument as a sax or guitar. It seems many of the comments are made hear out of ignorance, for instance what does the message in many of the hip hop songs have to do with sampling in itself and musicianship? Seems some here simply have some issues and let those issues come in the way of rational thinking. If you could sample as well as Jay Z then why dont you do it? If it is not an artform and is so easy why not go make the money?

Posted at 5:10PM on Nov 21st 2006 by Edward Pichette

8. i too am with steve on this one. while sampling people can get creative with the techniques, and sometimes it can be fun to listen to, it's nothing like what it takes to learn to play an instrument well. you have to learn notes, chord structures, scales, tunings. just tuning a guitar alone (without a tuner) takes an ear for music. and if you wanna be real good you'll eventaully have to learn to read and or write music. it's an entire language. none of these skills are needed to learn to cut and paste or mix and match files or clips of other music. it's a much lower art form if it is at all.

Posted at 5:13PM on Nov 21st 2006 by sammyboy

9. Please edward. If i could sample as well as jayz then, we'll i'd sample as well as jayz. That's like saying 'If you can sing as well as Madonna, then you'd be making money and famous too". Funny! Madonna, as we all know, is the best singer out there. Sure. Right. Walk in any decent bar in a big city on a friday night and you'll find a technically better singer. Stars, at least commercially popular ones, aren't popular because of their talent - they have an image, the proper look or tatoos etc. Or they say or do something contoversial to become famous and then get worshipped. You can't tell me that you are that naive.

Did you ever notice how the only popular female country singers in the USA on the charts all happen to be gorgeous? Wow, what an amazing coincidence. I guess they are the best singers though, really. Yep. Talk about ignorance.

Posted at 5:25PM on Nov 21st 2006 by steve

10. WOw you guys are completely devoid of artistic expresson. Yes Buddy Rich was amazing and how better to honor Buddy Rich than to sample him, and first of all regarding turntables as not being a musical instrument that is insane. First of their is even sheet music created for turntabalist. Their is techniques like the crab technique. It takes cordination and skill to do something technical like Z-Trip does on "Immigrant Noise RMX" Check out the remix on Z-Trips myspace home page and don't ever waste my time again with ignorance. If you can cut it up like Z-Trip then why don't you do it. I have 18 years expierence in music playing guitar, drums, and bass and trust me turntabalism and sampling is an art form. You guys are close minded and clearly are very ignorant on the subject. I own turntables. I have worked with a sample machine. You still need to keep things in key guys, they have to be in time. Things have to fit and when you play a guitar riff it is the same damn thing. I understand their is politics in music but if your so good why don't you play out tour the clubs and watch you fan base grow? I want to know? Why wouldnt you make millions so you don't have to waste time crapping all over others work? If you could you would, but obviously you can't or don't have a big enough heart. Why don't you start working on turntabalism and see just how precise you can scrath, sixteenth notes and such. If you can cut it up like Z - Trip I will personally manage you and take you to the top. I will get you top gigs in clubs all over the country, so how's that, but that is not going to happen because you can't cut it, you can only dis it. Out.

Posted at 6:21PM on Nov 21st 2006 by Edward

11. "You can only 'dis' it. Out" Hilarious, you scholar you. I bet you use "you-know-whatum-sayin" a lot too.

The only ignorance here is clearly, ahem, articulated in your posts.

And yes, as you well know, those hot country singers ARE the best singers. Only the most talented become famous! I'm sure you are famous too (you sure sound like you strive for that), or haven't you scratched the right record? If you want, I can come over and scratch your records for you?

Posted at 6:36PM on Nov 21st 2006 by steve

12. Sampling is a minor talent, as is scratching records. It just doesn't measure up on the "difficult" scale.

Posted at 6:40PM on Nov 21st 2006 by strummy-joeboy

13. Plus, I'd add, the clear difference is that musicians make music from silence on an instrument - there is no head-start, nothing. Samplers are always starting with something already played - a proper chord (the hard part), an accurate beat, or something in a key. They are not starting from silence. They're dependent on someone to get them started.

Posted at 6:47PM on Nov 21st 2006 by strummy-joeboy

14. Things have heated up here.

I pointed to a reference, a movie called "Scratch". You may not like the sound, or appreciate the product that turntablists create. But if you lend an objective ear to what they're doing, you'd see that it takes years and years of hard, dedicated work to achieve the control and "voice" of their abilities. But you don't seem to want to bother.

Which is OK. But then someone talks about jazz greats and how they've developed their art. Music defined as "sound that began in silence" is not what you'd find in Groves Dictionary. And we all don't have to agree abou this, but my definition in this context is "arranged sound". I happen to believe that nature also produces music, but for this discussion I'll stick to sounds arranged by humans. Taking recorded sound and arranging it in a way that delivers individual expression (not just remixing it or playing "producer" for a recording...although I would argue that George Martin was more than a producer) is what some of these artists do. Sure, there are crappy scratchers, and samplers. Just as there are crappy jazz pianists.

Look at the collage works of Picasso, Miro, Klee, Chagall, Max Ernst, the Dadaists. Does the fact they incorporate newspapers, found objects, instrument parts or clothing make these works art-less? What are they?

Posted at 12:37PM on Nov 22nd 2006 by roymond

15. Wow, I just don't think some of you guys are getting it really. I mean what does hot country singers have to do with anything. Yes, we all know that happens in the music industry and it is not relevant to the point, neither is my musical asspirations. I am content to simply make music and enjoy it.

Roymond has mentioned some great points, in regards to the great collage artist like Picasso have done. The thing is are we to say collage artwork has no credibility or place in music. I think millions of music fans world wide would disagree with that clearly.

To say record scratching is so simple a thing, well I am guessing you may be able to do it but probably not very well. As mentioned the movie Scratch might be a good thing for you to watch before you pass judgment on these artist. Personally I am completly mind boggled that you do not view the turntables as a musical instrument. This is simply so far off the mark. It is laughable really to even suggest the turntables are not musical instruments.

I am completely taken back by some of the views here and I think you tend to focus yourself more on fame and your lack of it than say what it is really about. It is about music for me, I don't give a damn about money. I play music from my soul, my heart, I feel it and keep it real. That is exactly what guys like Mix Master Mike do. You can't tell me Mix Master Mike is not an accomplished artist. That would be simply foolishness. Really I am done wasting time with your kind. Your view is pathetic and your arguments well quite frankly sway from the real point now don't they. In short you simply do not get it. You know what I am saying! Ha. Catch a clue and stop be littling other artist. What is the point in that? Really is it about music or is it about your personal disdain for an entire culture you don't like? I doubt you scratch very well Steve or with much difficulty, because you clearly should be winning a turntable championship any day now if it is so easy.

Posted at 1:57PM on Nov 26th 2006 by Edward

16. I agree with you Tim.. rappin ain't easy. I can't agree that hip-hop lyrics are superior to other forms of music, but they're on par in lots of cases. There are some amazing hip-hop lyric writers, and that coupled with smooth delivery (mos def, Slick Rick, Eric B) hits a soft spot for me every time. I could do without some of the misogynistic and homophobic bits some mainstream hit makers throw but, all in all Rap is an art form just like any other.

Posted at 4:42PM on Nov 29th 2006 by Grant Robertson

17. To all u people who say rappers aren't real musicians, I ask you this: Have you ever tried to rap? It's a pretty fuckin hard skill to perfect - easily as difficult as singing. I expect you're thinking whats hard about talking over someone else's music? It's not talking, it's rapping - listen to a good rap, fuckin listen to the lyrics and there will be bits and metaphors that you don't notice or understand until you've listened to it a few times. Personally I believe that hip-hop has the deepest, most intelligent lyrics out of any music. Someones gonna quote me now on some thuggin' lyrics now about cars n jewellery. Rappers are not generally well-educated, rich, refined people - it's pretty stuck up to belittle rappers cos they're not middle-class and therefore shouldn't know how to make music.

Posted at 3:41PM on Dec 1st 2006 by Tim

18. Have any of you guys ever heard of the Roots or the Beastie Boys? These are hip-hop bands! You know dudes that rap and play instruments! Or, how about Dr Dre; (he has his own studio band and plays keyboards, butjust because someone uses a sample, then they get totally discredited. Thats bullshit! Hip-hop, turntablism, rapping, sampling; is all forms of musical expression. Thats the key..its is the expression of the artist, and while you may not like it..it doesn't give you the right to say that someone of some form of music is not "real". I am a professor of musical theory at Hunter College in New York, and I think that artist like Kanye West, and Jay-Z, Mos def, Common (the list goes on) are some of the most socially conscience and creative artists, i have ever heard across any genre. Think about how music has evolved through time. The first music documented was chamber music.."have you ever heard any of this?'' not to freindly to the ear, but it was also heralded as the most celebrated style, in the medieval times. I mean this music was played for kings and queens.

And to all of you people who say hip-hop is negative, are just bold face hippocrites. I mean how its it OK for an artist like billy idol to make a song about bumping uglies with an under age girl? (the cradle of love) but if am artist uses the word bitch or pimp, then thats negative? I don't think so. We are all adults and most of the people claiming they are offended by such "vulgar" language or depictions of violence are the same people that flocked to the theater to see missing in action or the transporter. I mean tom cruise won an academy award for playing a role as a hitman. So should we boycott movies because they are as equally offensive! People really think about what you are saying, because it all boils down to taste and perception. Just because you don't like something doesn't give you the right to say that it is not an art form, or that the person expressing doesn't have talent. I'd be willing to bet you that most of the groups you like don't even write their own lyrics

Posted at 5:30PM on Dec 1st 2006 by chase_1ne

19. Its so funny how nowadays there are so many hip hop analyst! LOL! People fear what they dont know and and say alot of things that make no sense to people who live hip hop. Its better to ask questions when you don't know something instead of trying to sound knowledgable and end up sounding stupid!!!

Posted at 9:15AM on Dec 8th 2006 by wireless

20. u assholes thats the bueaty of it taking something thats either old or has no jump to it and making it hot
and all those"real musicians" are broke as hell. and not all producers sample sounds....a majority of them produce from scratch and producers like scott storch actually play instruments and get some off their sounds from the instruments they play.im not gon write forever bout ths shit bottom line...producers are better that"real musicians"asssholes

Posted at 7:03PM on Dec 10th 2006 by jim jackson